<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: God&#8217;s Will and the Problem of Pain</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/show/247/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/show/247</link>
	<description>The blog of the Dartmouth Apologia</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:13:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Denton</title>
		<link>http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/show/247/comment-page-1#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Denton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/?p=247#comment-110</guid>
		<description>Dear Robert, thank you for your response to my essay. Please allow me to offer my take on the verses that you mentioned.

On one of your points, I am mostly in agreement. Hebrews 12:7 says &quot;Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?&quot; This verse does indicate that God can positively bring correction into our lives - like a good parent. The immediate context deals with sin (verse 6) and the subsequent need for punishment (verse 7). When we experience suffering, we should examine ourselves and see if there is some need for correction. 

But I do not automatically assume that suffering is because of some sin in my life. God intends for our lives to be characterized by peace (John 14:27, Galatians 5:22).

A second verse that you mentioned is 1 Corinthians 5:5, &quot;Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.&quot; How direct is God&#039;s action here? I do not think that Satan is a faithful follower of God who carries out God&#039;s desire for punishment. Neither do I think that it is automatic that when someone is handed over to Satan, that person will return to God. Satan is no dummy. Rather I interpret the verse like this, &quot;Let us pray that the protection that Christians normally have from the afflictions of Satan and the world will be removed so that this person will experience the consequences of his sin, realize his error, repent, and through God&#039;s grace return to God.&quot;

This last verse and most of those that you mentioned fall into a category that I call &quot;God can bring good out of bad&quot; type situations. Consider for instance Matthew 10:21-22, &quot;Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me.&quot; I do not believe that God ordained this hatred as I do not believe that God causes sin. Yet as you made clear in your comments, good can come from it.  God can use suffering to bring us closer to him. Especially, he can build our faith and endurance.

The crucifixion itself falls under the category of God bringing good from bad. Satan intended to destroy God&#039;s servant the Messiah, but God used his suffering and death to bring salvation to the world.  While God did foresee and foretell the Messiah&#039;s torment and death, I do not think that God made Judas betray Jesus.  At the Last Supper, Jesus says to Judas after Satan has entered Judas, &quot;What you are about to do, do quickly&quot; (John 13:26-27).  Note that Jesus doesn&#039;t say, &quot;Do the job that you are supposed to do,&quot; but rather &quot;The job that you are going to do [anyway], do it quickly.&quot;

You concentrated on discipline and persecution. People experience other kinds of suffering, like illness.  Healing is one sign of the breaking in of the kingdom of God to our world (Luke 7:21-22).  Note Matthew 4:23, &quot;Jesus went through Galilee... healing every disease and sickness among the people.&quot; James says, &quot;Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray... Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well” (James 5:13, 14-15). Note that he doesn&#039;t say, &quot;Embrace this suffering and grow from it.&quot; While we do not yet see an end to this kind of suffering on this side of heaven, even with prayer, I have witnessed healings and have heard of other healings from a number of different Christian traditions.  And many people who have not experienced complete healing have at least experienced comfort.

Consider Paul&#039;s &quot;thorn in the flesh&quot; (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Paul writes, &quot;There was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’”  We don&#039;t know what this affliction was. God used it to help Paul grow in dependence on him. But note that Paul did not start out assuming that he was supposed to live with it. His assumption was that he should pray for deliverance.

I recognize that I don&#039;t have all the answers about these things. But I feel that the approach I&#039;ve outlined, not holding God directly accountable for &quot;bad things&quot; and  understanding that he can take &quot;bad things&quot; and turn them into good things, is helpful for me to appreciate the goodness of God and love him more. I hope that it may be helpful to others also and can help to clear barriers to belief in our wonderful God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Robert, thank you for your response to my essay. Please allow me to offer my take on the verses that you mentioned.</p>
<p>On one of your points, I am mostly in agreement. Hebrews 12:7 says &#8220;Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?&#8221; This verse does indicate that God can positively bring correction into our lives &#8211; like a good parent. The immediate context deals with sin (verse 6) and the subsequent need for punishment (verse 7). When we experience suffering, we should examine ourselves and see if there is some need for correction. </p>
<p>But I do not automatically assume that suffering is because of some sin in my life. God intends for our lives to be characterized by peace (John 14:27, Galatians 5:22).</p>
<p>A second verse that you mentioned is 1 Corinthians 5:5, &#8220;Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.&#8221; How direct is God&#8217;s action here? I do not think that Satan is a faithful follower of God who carries out God&#8217;s desire for punishment. Neither do I think that it is automatic that when someone is handed over to Satan, that person will return to God. Satan is no dummy. Rather I interpret the verse like this, &#8220;Let us pray that the protection that Christians normally have from the afflictions of Satan and the world will be removed so that this person will experience the consequences of his sin, realize his error, repent, and through God&#8217;s grace return to God.&#8221;</p>
<p>This last verse and most of those that you mentioned fall into a category that I call &#8220;God can bring good out of bad&#8221; type situations. Consider for instance Matthew 10:21-22, &#8220;Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me.&#8221; I do not believe that God ordained this hatred as I do not believe that God causes sin. Yet as you made clear in your comments, good can come from it.  God can use suffering to bring us closer to him. Especially, he can build our faith and endurance.</p>
<p>The crucifixion itself falls under the category of God bringing good from bad. Satan intended to destroy God&#8217;s servant the Messiah, but God used his suffering and death to bring salvation to the world.  While God did foresee and foretell the Messiah&#8217;s torment and death, I do not think that God made Judas betray Jesus.  At the Last Supper, Jesus says to Judas after Satan has entered Judas, &#8220;What you are about to do, do quickly&#8221; (John 13:26-27).  Note that Jesus doesn&#8217;t say, &#8220;Do the job that you are supposed to do,&#8221; but rather &#8220;The job that you are going to do [anyway], do it quickly.&#8221;</p>
<p>You concentrated on discipline and persecution. People experience other kinds of suffering, like illness.  Healing is one sign of the breaking in of the kingdom of God to our world (Luke 7:21-22).  Note Matthew 4:23, &#8220;Jesus went through Galilee&#8230; healing every disease and sickness among the people.&#8221; James says, &#8220;Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray&#8230; Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well” (James 5:13, 14-15). Note that he doesn&#8217;t say, &#8220;Embrace this suffering and grow from it.&#8221; While we do not yet see an end to this kind of suffering on this side of heaven, even with prayer, I have witnessed healings and have heard of other healings from a number of different Christian traditions.  And many people who have not experienced complete healing have at least experienced comfort.</p>
<p>Consider Paul&#8217;s &#8220;thorn in the flesh&#8221; (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Paul writes, &#8220;There was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’”  We don&#8217;t know what this affliction was. God used it to help Paul grow in dependence on him. But note that Paul did not start out assuming that he was supposed to live with it. His assumption was that he should pray for deliverance.</p>
<p>I recognize that I don&#8217;t have all the answers about these things. But I feel that the approach I&#8217;ve outlined, not holding God directly accountable for &#8220;bad things&#8221; and  understanding that he can take &#8220;bad things&#8221; and turn them into good things, is helpful for me to appreciate the goodness of God and love him more. I hope that it may be helpful to others also and can help to clear barriers to belief in our wonderful God.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Cousins '09</title>
		<link>http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/show/247/comment-page-1#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Cousins '09</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 06:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/?p=247#comment-101</guid>
		<description>Thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking post, Prof. Denton. Indeed, much suffering stems from sin (Romans 6:23). I do not think, however, that I would place so much emphasis on pain being the product of God&#039;s &quot;permissive will.&quot; The New Testament is rife with assurance that we will face hardship and adversity in this lifetime (though it pales beside to the glory that awaits in the next). 

In Acts 5:41, the apostles were &quot;rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.&quot; Matthew 10:22, 2 Cor 4:17, Heb 12:7 and Jas 1:2-3 also deal directly with suffering as sanctification, God-ordained and God-directed. The specific tribulations themselves may or may not be picked out by God, but the suffering experience surely is.

There are also the deeply interesting verses 1 Timothy 1:20 and 1 Cor 5:5. The latter verse reads, &quot;Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.&quot; Though these passages refer to extremely specific cases of individuals under church discipline, they nevertheless indicate that even Satanic torment can be part of God&#039;s sanctifying plan for His people. 

This is not to belittle the reality and gravity of either sin or Satan; sin is extremely real and we face a determined Enemy (Romans 3:23, 1 Peter 5:8). I do, however, primarily see suffering as yet another tool God can use to draw us closer to Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking post, Prof. Denton. Indeed, much suffering stems from sin (Romans 6:23). I do not think, however, that I would place so much emphasis on pain being the product of God&#8217;s &#8220;permissive will.&#8221; The New Testament is rife with assurance that we will face hardship and adversity in this lifetime (though it pales beside to the glory that awaits in the next). </p>
<p>In Acts 5:41, the apostles were &#8220;rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.&#8221; Matthew 10:22, 2 Cor 4:17, Heb 12:7 and Jas 1:2-3 also deal directly with suffering as sanctification, God-ordained and God-directed. The specific tribulations themselves may or may not be picked out by God, but the suffering experience surely is.</p>
<p>There are also the deeply interesting verses 1 Timothy 1:20 and 1 Cor 5:5. The latter verse reads, &#8220;Hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.&#8221; Though these passages refer to extremely specific cases of individuals under church discipline, they nevertheless indicate that even Satanic torment can be part of God&#8217;s sanctifying plan for His people. </p>
<p>This is not to belittle the reality and gravity of either sin or Satan; sin is extremely real and we face a determined Enemy (Romans 3:23, 1 Peter 5:8). I do, however, primarily see suffering as yet another tool God can use to draw us closer to Him.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

